tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13562046.post115210392255253213..comments2023-10-30T10:31:52.321+00:00Comments on Infinitives Unsplit: That Poll...Tim Worstallhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13161727860817121071noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13562046.post-1152726215330818682006-07-12T18:43:00.000+01:002006-07-12T18:43:00.000+01:00...and that is sort of why I put "legitimate targe......and that is sort of why I put "legitimate targets" (originally IRA double-speak) in quotes. Every government and terrorist group has its own idea of who is a "legitmate target" and who is an "innocent civillian" - and in some folks minds (mine included) there is not much difference between the two.<BR/><BR/>I used to be in the UK Armed Forces I became used to being a "legitimate target" for Irish Republican terrorists all-day, every-day, year-after-year. A target when I was drinking in a pub in the evening, a target when I was sat on the beach on holiday, a target when I was in church at a funeral. So forgive me if I don't get too excited about "innocent civillians" getting wasted in a domestic terrorist conflict. Soldiers, police and politicians getting blown to bits on British streets is just as bad as wiping out nurses, firemen, cleaners, contract caterers, wives, children and various other angels of society.<BR/><BR/>You ask: "Who lives and works at your average MoD establishment?" and manage to think of a few of the peripheral "innocents" but fail to mention any of the loyal public servants who routinely risk their lives for your continuing safely and comfort. I can only assume you consider them to be worthy terrorist victims, whereas "innocent" civillians are not; a view that seems to be shared by 10% of the people in the survey.<BR/><BR/>On this logic, morally you would fall somewhere short of 79% of the muslims in the survey, who don't think terrorist attacks on the militaty are justified... I'm certain this is not what you actually think, but the wording of your original post certainly doesn't make this clear.<BR/><BR/>Sorry for being a bit serious, but this "innocent civillian" thing still really gets my goat.towcestarianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15092802492560172339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13562046.post-1152692521464769892006-07-12T09:22:00.000+01:002006-07-12T09:22:00.000+01:00Akaakakakakakkakaky:His contention was not that Mu...Akaakakakakakkakaky:<BR/><BR/>His contention was not that Muslims DO not kill other Muslims, but that they SHOULD not.<BR/><BR/>My gripe is that that statement is at best meaningless (in that, given that Muslims very visibly ARE killing other Muslims right now, the issue is what to do about it) and at worst not quite the whole truth (in that when any other genuine human being says something of this sort, it is of a form similar to "thou shalt not kill" without any particular qualification as to who ought not to be killed. Is it OK for Muslims to kill people of other religions? Probably not, but it is a peculiar choice of words if he genuinely sees all humans as equal.)<BR/><BR/><BR/>Towcestarian:<BR/><BR/>Welcome to Infinitives Unsplit. It is always nice to see that the Internet has reached as far afield as Northamptonshire.<BR/><BR/><I>" Killing innocent civilians in an attack on a "legitmate target" is OK by me."</I><BR/><BR/>Well yes and no: it is regrettable and to be avoided as far as humanly possible. <BR/><BR/>there are two key points to note though:<BR/><BR/>Firstly, 11% - that is <B>120 people</B> out of 1131 Muslims polled - don't see that there is a requirement to have a legitimate target. <BR/><BR/>Secondly, these are citizens of our country who appear to think that the institutions of <B>our country</B> are legitimate targets.<BR/><BR/>The populus people must have been pretty traumatised in carrying out this poll. Imagine ringing 1000 people and talking to 200 who believe they are basically at war with their own and your country.<BR/><BR/>Not good.The Pedant-Generalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08738418480281658868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13562046.post-1152384001331551272006-07-08T19:40:00.000+01:002006-07-08T19:40:00.000+01:00The contention that Muslims do not kill other Musl...The contention that Muslims do not kill other Muslims is somewhat ahistorical, to put it mildly; why was Peter O'Toole swanning around the desert in a bedsheet if not to better portray a Christian sent to help Muslim Arabs kill Muslim Turks in an organized and proficient military manner? The cabbie's argument, I fear, does not hold water or much else.Akakyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00187471562516416268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13562046.post-1152305190045786792006-07-07T21:46:00.000+01:002006-07-07T21:46:00.000+01:00Sadly, neither Anonymous nor the distinguished P-G...Sadly, neither Anonymous nor the distinguished P-G managed to spell 'Indiscriminate' correctly. <BR/><BR/>O Tempora, O Mores!Chromatisteshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07084891138875712231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13562046.post-1152184722646114672006-07-06T12:18:00.000+01:002006-07-06T12:18:00.000+01:00Mr E,"There is nothing in what the taxi driver sai...Mr E,<BR/><BR/><I>"There is nothing in what the taxi driver said that indicates he supports Muslim jihadis slaughtering Muslim Iraqis."</I><BR/><BR/>He may not support it, but he is quite dead set against preventing it.<BR/><BR/>In general, however, your objection to the "doublethink" phrase is probably fair though. I was having a little froth at the mouth and the phrasing for this was chopped about quite a bit. <BR/><BR/>Mea culpa.The Pedant-Generalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08738418480281658868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13562046.post-1152176677615659112006-07-06T10:04:00.000+01:002006-07-06T10:04:00.000+01:00Anon,Blogger logins are free. Please do go and get...Anon,<BR/><BR/>Blogger logins are free. Please do go and get one so that we all know who you are. I shall then be delighted to welcome you personally to Infinitives Unsplit. <BR/><BR/>Thank you, however, for your comment. I don't agree and for a very simple reason. I'm surprised you haven't spotted it.<BR/><BR/>the key phrase in your comment is:<BR/><I>"... during WW2 ..."</I><BR/><BR/>Either you are suggesting that 11% of the general population generally support indiscrimate bombing of civilians during peace time, or you are suggesting that - for your comparison to hold water - 11% of those polled think they are <B>at war with their own country</B>.<BR/><BR/>The first is obviously palpable nonsense, which leaves the second which is quite possibly true and hence really very disturbing.<BR/><BR/><BR/>RM,<BR/><BR/>Hello and welcome. Dig your new blog. Long overdue.<BR/><BR/><I>"I will not kill fellow Muslims. That is against my religion."</I><BR/><BR/>I think this statement, on its own, is perfectly laudable. It's just that it is entirely irrelevant in the context of the Army's role in Iraq, which is very largely the attempted prevention of some Muslims from killing large swathes of other Muslims and subjugating all of the rest to a hideous theocracy.<BR/><BR/>ninme,<BR/><BR/>I'll need to look at the survey to answer that. This really comes down to the acceptance of the rule of law and of the legitimacy of Government to enforce it. Which is a different topic.<BR/><BR/>That said, I shouldn't think that the 11% who could find some justification for suicide bombing of civilians in general would hold the rule of law in particularly high regard....The Pedant-Generalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08738418480281658868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13562046.post-1152114144734934382006-07-05T16:42:00.000+01:002006-07-05T16:42:00.000+01:00"I will not kill fellow Muslims. That is against m..."I will not kill fellow Muslims. That is against my religion."<BR/><BR/>Apart from some very strange sects in places like Arkansas most religions have injunctions against killing people, especially co-religionists. Somehow that doesn't seem to have stopped humans of all persuasions from happily bashing each other over the head from time to time.<BR/><BR/>And I would find it very strange indeed if for a thousand years every muslim country has lived in perfect harmony with its muslim neighbours. <BR/><BR/>I'm sure a quick scan of google will provide many instances when muslims found it quite acceptable to slaughter other muslims in civil wars, national wars, riots after polo matches whatever.<BR/><BR/>I suspect that when the chance came to go and bash the bastards on the other side of the hill and nick their cows, women or gold, such religious qualms were conveniently forgotten even by the most devout. I'll even bet that from time to time clever Johnnies managed to find spurious religious excuses to justify murder and rapine just like the christians, jews, hindus and probably even the bloody tree worshippers have done.The Remittance Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13104149259707414863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13562046.post-1152111041110799442006-07-05T15:50:00.000+01:002006-07-05T15:50:00.000+01:00Given that a significant proportion of the British...Given that a significant proportion of the British public think the indiscriminant bombing of Dresden and other German cities during WW2 was justified, those figures are actually quite low.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com